Random HP fan-culture question...

[a_t_rain]

Why don't we see more Fleur Delacour bashing?

I mean, it's not that I want to see it, particularly, because Fleur amuses me, and as far as I'm concerned, the less fan-hatred directed toward female characters, the better. It's just that Fleur is pretty much the living embodiment of every negative female stereotype that you can imagine, and she actually, unquestionably exhibits most of the behaviors that the other females in the series are accused of exhibiting. I mean, here is a character who genuinely DOES believe the world revolves around her, blithely ignores the fact that there's a war going on, is rude to her hosts, and has no compunctions about picking a fight with her prospective mother-in-law over her fiance's unconscious body, seconds after being informed of Dumbledore's death. Her main redemptive act is that she doesn't abandon Bill after he's been mauled by a werewolf, but isn't that, you know, pretty much expected if you're engaged to somebody?

And yet. She gets away with it. If anything, most of the fans seem to believe Molly and Ginny are being unreasonably bitchy to her.

So is it just that she's so over-the-top that nobody takes her seriously, or is it the veela charm at work? Or do the fans just not care about her because they don't care about Bill, and she's not a threat to any other ships?

Comments

[gioiamia.livejournal.com]

I suspect fans are too busy fighting about the respective merits of Hermione and Ginny for a faction to form around or against Fleur. In addition, I, for one, keep thinking there must be some hidden gold in her that would make Harry feel friendly toward her and cause a Weasley to love her. That's not to say I'm not still miffed at her for her attitude during GoF. Sniffing derisively during Dumbledore's welcome feast - what an obnoxious young girl she was! But in the end, I think she's just not a significant enough character to distract the more argumentative fans away from arguing which character is most shallow and whorish: Ginny or Hermione. Hehe!

[moriaravenswood.livejournal.com]

I'll bet shipping is a big part of it. Also, she's a very MINOR character.

One thing that probably helps is that we aren't asked to like her. I think if people don't feel like they're supposed to approve of a character they'll give her a lot more slack.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

I think she's just not a significant enough character to distract the more argumentative fans away from arguing which character is most shallow and whorish: Ginny or Hermione.

:: snort :: Yeah, indeed. But the fans don't seem to have too much of a problem bashing some of the minor characters. Cho, for instance, has less screen time than Fleur, and she hasn't done anything particularly dislikeable apart from being a bit of a drip and staying friendly with Marietta, and yet she gets it on the chin -- even though it should have been obvious by the end of OotP that she was no threat to anybody's preferred Harry-ship.

[origamist.livejournal.com]

tortoise suggests that it's because there's no significant "we love Fleur" camp to annoy people into forming a "we hate Fleur" camp. In other words, it's because she's a minor character.

[gioiamia.livejournal.com]

If fans are crazy (and childish) enough to bash the actress who plays Cho, I guess it shouldn't be any surprise that they bash the character.

So maybe a more appropriate answer to your question would be that, from my perspective, Fleur isn't a significant character to the fans who are prone to bashing because Fleur was never a serious threat to Harry shippers. She wasn't really a serious threat as far as Ron was concerned, either.

What's your take?

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with the remarks about Fleur being a minor character. She's also not involved with any of the major characters (Bill has appeared a bare handful of times, himself), so she doesn't open herself up to the shipping wars.

[sixth-light.livejournal.com]

Again with the minor-characterness, and I think you're right about her being over the top. Fleur is quite clearly a walking stereotype of a Frenchwoman, and her behaviour is meant to be humerous, so no one takes it very seriously. They're not looking for signs of deeper feeling. I think that there is more to her than we see, but that's not her purpose in the story.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Agreed with those who said that Fleur is a (relatively) minor character. Also, she's not a threat to any Harry ship. That's why Cho came in for hate out of all proportion to her character, and she was hated even before she revealed herself to be rather unlikeable in OOtP - she was Harry's potential love interest. (For the record, I dislike Cho for her personality and for being friends with Marietta. Not for who she dated.)

Fleur, on the other hand, has dated Cedric Diggory and Roger Davies, neither of whom had a huge fangirl following. Now she's engaged to Bill, ditto. There are not enough rabid Bill fangirls with an investment in seeing him date their pet character/themselves for the resentment to build.

Added to this, and an explanation of why Tonks is hated and Fleur not, is that Fleur doesn't have a high prestige job. Not only was Tonks shipped with Remus long before they were actually canon - therefore threatening the popular R/S ship - Tonks has a prestigious job. Fleur works for Gringotts, part-time. (I suspect she's a "trustafarian.") There's not that element of "How DARE she!" with Fleur that there was with Tonks.

[sparkly-stuff.livejournal.com]

Or do the fans just not care about her because they don't care about Bill, and she's not a threat to any other ships?

I think you got it right there. She's not a threat to Trio-shipping, and, like Bill, she's a minor character. Tonks, on the other hand, is a serious threat to the popular R/S ship, and isn't designed to be a caricature like Fleur is.

I personally like Fleur, though I wish she would actually take part in the Order's activities. She's just kinda sitting on the sidelines the whole time, which is odd for someone who a few years back was a Triwizard Champion! Shouldn't she be brave and out to kick some ass?

[swatkat24.livejournal.com]

I think that fandom is so single-minded in its Ginny-hate that it automatically sides with Fleur. *g*

Swatkat

[the-prof.livejournal.com]

Doesn't she have half the male population of Hogwarts drooling all over her in GoF? Isn't there something about that sort of thing one one or two Mary Sue litmus tests?

And Cho's a fair point. I saw Cho bashing long before OotP ever came out, and she only had a handful sentences dedicated to her between two books.

Hm...maybe an enemy of Ginny's is a friend of theirs?

[snorkackcatcher]

What do you all MEAN Fleur is a MINOR character? She's absolutely CRUCIAL to the plot ...

... oh all right, no she isn't. But I was trying to say something slightly different from most of the other comments. :)

You do see some Fleur-hate, but like you say, and like most such debates, it comes down to shipping wars. No-one much cares because Bill's fairly minor too (although I suspect he'll get a bigger role in book 7 - a professional curse breaker looks like a handy chap to have on side if you're off hunting Horcruxes). And as someone said, because she's so totally over the top, she's supposed to be annoying.

Personally, I rather warmed to her after the Second Task scene, and tend to think Harry's actually got the right attitude - "she's all right really", neither mesmerised by the Veela charm like Ron nor loathing her like Ginny and Hermione. She's a rampant egotist, but decent underneath which counts for a lot, and when she cares for someone she really cares. I've known and liked people with that sort of personality before.

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

I'd call it the over-the-top syndrome. Personally, I did think of her as "just another one of the pathetic women" (which doesn't actually include Ginny) in the series, and didn't give her a moment's thought as I read. Right along with Molly and Ginny, I couldn't stand her and felt Bill could do a whole lot better.

I did laugh out loud at her comment about being good-looking enough for both of them, though. :)

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Or do the fans just not care about her because they don't care about Bill, and she's not a threat to any other ships?

DING DING DING DING DING!

Sadly, that's exactly right. For the most part. I also think people feel, well, she's already a built Mary Sue, and a bit of an airhead at times, so it's no surprise.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Makes you also wonder if this fandom isn't a bit unknowingly sexist...

[jesspallas.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason is that there is a certain type of person out there who likes to bash characters in order to get a reaction and possibly start a fight (yes, I know, certainly not always, but sometimes you do get folks like that) so they call Ginny a Mary-Sue or Tonks pathetic because they know someone will leap to their defence and they can have a rant. But if you say "Fleur is so full of herself and so egotisical! She's such a Mary-Sue!" the response will probably be "Well...yeah. Obviously." ;)

But mainly, I agree with what everyone else says - she's not that significant a character and she doesn't mess with anyone's ships. And it's ship wars that tend to bring out the most violent hatreds...;)

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that she isn't doing anything to the younger characters' ships is a big part of it. And I agree with the "there aren't Fleur lovers" argument as well. It's kind of the opposite of the way the Ron-lovers are so "obnoxious" because the Ron-haters are so "obnoxious".

I think nobody takes her seriously, either. And ... I was really glad when she told off Molly at the end. Because not making her a sweater when she makes one for everyone else is just mean. :(

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

I personally like Fleur, though I wish she would actually take part in the Order's activities. She's just kinda sitting on the sidelines the whole time, which is odd for someone who a few years back was a Triwizard Champion! Shouldn't she be brave and out to kick some ass?

Yup. I have to say that's the bit that really bugs me about Fleur's characterization -- she hasn't been shown to be particularly good at anything except looking pretty and making random male characters completely lose their heads, and she seems to have been the weakest of the Triwizard candidates as well as the only female. And the level of ethnic stereotyping associated with her makes me uncomfortable.

I blame Jo for this, not Fleur, by the way :)

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Only a bit? :)

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Doesn't she have half the male population of Hogwarts drooling all over her in GoF? Isn't there something about that sort of thing one one or two Mary Sue litmus tests?

Indeed there is, which is one of the reasons why I asked.

Hm...maybe an enemy of Ginny's is a friend of theirs?

Sadly, I get the feeling that this may in fact be the case. There seems to be a huge upswing in sympathy for Poor Unjustly Derided Fleur, never mind that she says in front of her hosts that there's nothing to do at the Burrow unless you like cooking and chickens. I'd be a bit miffed if somebody said that to my mother too.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

So the consensus is -- minor character, doesn't interfere with anybody's pet ship, duh, stupid question? I guess that's about what I should have figured :)

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Right along with Molly and Ginny, I couldn't stand her and felt Bill could do a whole lot better.

Of course, there's always a possibility that Bill is a shallow, self-centered twit too, and we just haven't had a chance to notice yet since he hasn't had many lines yet. I think I like this theory :)

Come to think of it, isn't Bill the one who keeps telling ghoulish stories about the latest round of disappearances at Harry's birthday party, even after Molly tells him to knock it off? Yeah, I think those two just might be a match made in heaven.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Naaah, I don't think it's "duh stupid." It's actually interesting fandom anthropology. We can be Margaret Mead for a day!

Because Fleur IS the type of girl who you think would be disliked, but is not. It seems to boil down to shipping, but it seems like EVERYTHING boils down to shipping in the fandom.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Makes me wonder if Fleur, like Gilderoy Lockhart, is based off a real-life person Jo disliked. ;) Because yes, she seems remarkably idle for someone who was supposed to be a Champion and all.

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

A bit? Unknowingly? Ahahaha. I think for all its "feminist" posturings, much of this fandom is sexist as all get out.

I'm thinking again of how much more mellow the EC fandom is in this regard. The female characters who are disliked are because they are meant to be dislikable (Marona) or are insufferable (Joplaya). The male characters get equal time in the disliking department. And there are no redeemed Brukeval fics, for which I am profoundly grateful.

For a fandom containing a lot more supposedly conservative sorts of people, the EC fandom is more feminist than HP in many cases.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

I think for all its "feminist" posturings, much of this fandom is sexist as all get out.

Too true. Actually, it's sort of a weird mixture of the subversive and the reactionary, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the shipping wars. In some ways, it's refreshing to see a discussion of romance that casts the men primarily as objects, rather than subjects, of desire, but it seems to degenerate rather quickly into "girls must be pretty darn near perfect, yet not too perfect, to deserve to win the guy." (Also, male agency gets elided to a remarkable degree in these discussions. The fact that Harry likes Ginny and actively pursues a relationship with her seems to count for nothing in the endless debates over whether she's "worthy" of him.)

BTW, have you seen hp_feminism? I've just joined, but I think I'm going to lurk on the sidelines for a while and keep my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn into a "We hate everything about the way JKR portrays the female characters in canon" bash-fest.

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

Hahahaa. I actually never thought of it that way. You might just be right about our old Bill.

Although, he seems to handle the whole werewolf attack thing with a certain ammount of grace and charm. self-centered and twit, might be funny, but I'd hesitate to give him shallow.

[hannahmarder.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. It's a strange phenomenon that the female characters we are supposed to like in canon - Tonks, Ginny and Cho - get fiercely bashed, whilst far less conventionally likeable characters either avoid bashing - Petunia, Fleur, Maxime - or even have fans who praise them - Bellatrix, Narcissa. (The exception being Umbridge). Speaking relatively, of course. But it's true you'll find far more vicious Ginny and Tonks hate (and even Molly Weasley hate) than you will Narcissa hate or Fleur bashing.

It's also interesting that people (including JKR) put the liking for 'nasty' male characters (Draco, Lucius, Snape) down to girls wanting to 'change' the character or finding them attractive. Yet that can't really explain the similiar attitude to female characters.

Looking at the responses above, I'm pretty much alone in actually liking Fleur. Though my view is probably a little distorted from how I've written her in tFC and Fraternisation. But I really don't think she's so awful in canon, just a bit two-dimensional. Judging by what we know of her, rather than the small glimpses we see (which mainly are in situations that don't show her in her best light), I think it is reasonable to say she's actually a pretty decent person underneath the vanity.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, I don't actually dislike Fleur as much as some of the things I've been saying here suggest, honest :) I've been playing devil's advocate and deliberately trying to give her actions the same "spin" that much of the fandom would have given them if they had come from Ginny, Cho, Tonks, or Molly.

It's a strange phenomenon that the female characters we are supposed to like in canon - Tonks, Ginny and Cho - get fiercely bashed, whilst far less conventionally likeable characters either avoid bashing - Petunia, Fleur, Maxime - or even have fans who praise them - Bellatrix, Narcissa. (The exception being Umbridge). Speaking relatively, of course. But it's true you'll find far more vicious Ginny and Tonks hate (and even Molly Weasley hate) than you will Narcissa hate or Fleur bashing.

Yeah ... Of course there aren't that many fangirls with crushes on Hagrid, Rodolphus Lestrange, or Vernon Dursley, which could partly explain this phenomenon, but on the other hand there aren't too many with crushes on Arthur, either.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I thought Remus was egging him on there? And I'm glad someone else noticed that Bill barely spoke in HBP.

Whoever said that we aren't asked to LIKE Fleur had a point. I liked how she turned out at the end, but I've never really liked her. I've also never felt it necessary to bash her, because I felt she wasn't meant to be a likeable character from the beginning. She struck me as the popular bitchy girl. And while she's emphasized as pretty enough to be a Mary Sue, she's got major personality issues to go along with it, taking the Mary Sue curse away.

What DID bother me was why did JKR have to make the weakest of the four champions the only girl? Would it have killed her to have Fleur do better (or tie with) Krum? Especially given that she's a female author? I'm not saying that Fleur needed to be #1, but a little more magical acumen wouldn't have gone amiss.

Ah well.

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

She exemplified to me, the catty bitch perona that many girls are taking on these days. The shallow "Call my Princess and maybe I'll talk to you" type image that it being put out by Hot Topic, Taget, Bratz, etc etc etc

Most people I know actually admired Fluer (and granted I loved her snapping at Mrs Weasley *finally* at the end).

So, for whatever reason, Fluers shallowripped from the movie Clueless perosna has protected her . . . that and she's not involved in the Harry/Ginny/Hermione/Ron war from hell, which honestly, is where I think a lot of the negativity toward Ginny and Hermione come from.

I have nitpicks with most female characters in this books, but then i do with the males too, and with most femals I know in life. The only character I dislike is Ginny. *shrugs*

And that's just me usual "oh god, I'd hate you in life" reaction. I ahd that with Draco too. Both those characters struck very personal negative chords with me, so it's my own bias there.

However, I also think part of where Fluer gets off is because JKR presents some of FLuers actions in a negative light. You don't get the "Mother allowing daughter to get away with murder" feel that you do with Ginny (Ie: it's funny if Ginny hexes people for no good reason).

So, the fandom doesn't need to be negative toward Fluer, because JKR already is in the text. Whereas JKR is usually not toward Ginny and Hermione, and is in fact, supportive of actions by those characters that many readers seem to find annoying/offensive/rude/immature.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's fair to say I didn't have a problem with her in GoF -- she was a bit rude in the Opening Feast scene, but she was also seventeen years old and in a foreign country, and as you said, the fact that her little sister is what she misses most is rather sweet. I've got much bigger problems with the dynamic between her and Molly in HBP; obviously there's hostility and bad behavior on both sides, but Molly at least shows herself willing to rethink things and overcome her prejudices at the end, and Fleur is a lot more openly rude as a guest than Molly is as a host. So I think it's rather unfair that the fandom seems to have sided so heavily with Fleur.